Posts by Juan Viejo2

35

Hey, Y'all

by snowbird in

jw
friends

how is everybody doing?.

it's been 8 months since i've been here.. so many newbies!.

lol.. sylvia.

Juan Viejo2

Sylvia,

I've missed you. Glad to see you are back for a visit. Return often.

JV

27

it's easy to think of exjws as being a single amorphous group but the more i think about it, the more i believe that there are two distinct sub-groups and wonder if you agree.. there are those who believe and those who don't.

i know that seems obvious but let's break it down a bit more.

there are those who don't and never believed and some who are looking for a religion to match their beliefs.. i used to think this split would be between born-ins and converts but of course it's possible for born-ins to be believers although i suspect that many, like with other faiths, do so simply because they have never experienced anything else or made a conscious choice.

Juan Viejo2

Simon - I think you are on to something and have presented a decent theory about why ex-JWs seem to line up on two sides of a larger argument: To be OR Not to be a believing Christian (of whatever stripe or denomination).

Before they became Jehovah's Witnesses in the early 1950s, my parents were "christians." My mother was raised by a liberal Christian mother (Protestant denomination unknown) and a conservative and abusive father with Southern Baptist / Conservative Southern Methodist connections. While still in her early teens, Mom ran away from home and took refuge at a Catholic School for Girls. They gave her shelter and protection, so she converted to Catholicism to show her gratitude. But she never really practiced the religion other than going to mass on Easter and Christmas. My father was raised a (Southern) Baptist. Never was a church-goer and never considered himself religious beyond believing in Jesus.

They became Jehovah's Witnesses after my mother agreed to a "Bible Study" engineered by my much older half-sister. My sister became a JW right after the loss of a new baby. Where she lived in a small town in Oregon, there was a relatively large congregation of Jehovah's Witnesses. Looking for companionship and solace, my sister was easily sucked into the cult. It was she who sent a JW to our door in Los Angeles and managed to start our family's conversion from barely any religion at all to active and dedicated Jehovah's Witnesses.

When my brother and I both left the religion while in our early 20s, neither of us felt the connections to the conservative religious ties of the rest of our family - most of whom were conservative Southern Baptists. In fact, we were repelled by their hypocrisy and ignorance. Not only that, but most were very conservative, racist, and alcoholic. They offered us nothing of interest - and we had never attended their churches. We chose to "go without" rather than get sucked back into a "conventional and acceptable" religious "Bible-thumper" brain-killing lifestyle.

Since I became active in the ex-JW movement nearly ten years ago, I have seen that there are clearly two distinct paths that former JWs tend to follow. The one I prefer is a basically agnostic, non-religious, "it's all bullshit anyway" path - but still tolerant of those who prefer to believe and quote from their Bible from time to time.

At the same time, most of my closer ex-JW friends also tend to lean to agnosticism and general non-belief in the "christian" lifestyles of the majority. But I do not waste my time trying to convert any of the "neo-christian" ex-JWs. They can believe if they want to - I do not care. But I do get a bit irritated when they try to suck me and mine back into their "new" Christian beliefs that tend to mirror those of the Southern Baptists that I came to detest as I grew older.

Simon - you are definitely correct to point out the major chasm that seems to have been created between ex-JWs who have reembraced conservative Christianity and those of us who have chosen to leave all of that behind and unload that burden from our lives.

I think the major difference between us is that the "believers" among ex-JWs somehow feel they should make their rehoned beliefs public and judge all other ex-JWs based on whether they believe or not. They want to criticize those of us who do not believe and judge our worth based mainly on whether we have "God and Jesus" in our lives. Those of us who have chosen the non-believer path frankly don't care what they believe because we know deep down that they are really no different than they were as JWs - they've just changed brands.

JV

45

Lets hear what your local needs was about this week

by dbq407 in

ours started out with matt.

25:23. he brought out that "good and faithful slave" was talking about the anointed but wait for it.........yes the principle can be applied to our cong.

well tonight it was about getting all the territories worked once a year.

Juan Viejo2

Covering territories once a year? Something is just not right...

In the 1950s and 1960s, Southern California congregations were covering most populated areas at least once every 3-4 months. Our congregation had about 110 members, plus another 15-20 children under 15 who went door to door more or less by themselves.

Our total territory was fairly large, about 8-10 miles in each direction from our Kingdom Hall. My father was the Territory Servant for a few months - and like most things at the time - he delegated the actual clerical work of his position to me. I was still in my mid-teens.

I can't remember the exact way we managed everything (far too many years ago), but basically we would get three or four new maps from the Automobile Club that covered our city. We then outlined our Kingdom Hall territory boundaries. We used some kind of colored pens or crayons and marked all of the major streets with heavy lines and smaller thoroughfares with somewhat lighter lines.

Then the congregation servant, assistant congregation servant, the territory servant (my father), the Ministry School Servant, and each of the Tuesday night Book Study Conductors would have a meeting and reconsider the entire map and territories.

There were many considerations involved. First was locations of remote Tuesday Night Bookstudies. In those days, we often went out in service for 45 minutes before the 8:00 PM Book Study began (late spring <---> early autumn). So those territories around the remote meeting locations were selected and marked with thin colored pencil lines. Most were about six city blocks square, with an adjacent major street or boulevard. The idea was that we could walk or all hop in a single car and just go hit a few streets nearby for 30-40 minutes before the Book Study started. Doing that alone enabled some of us to get 2 to 4 service hours each month toward our goal of 10-15.

The next group of territories were the more remote and less populated areas best served by small groups or single publishers. We outlined them in one color of ink or crayon.

More populated areas were usually limited to about 6 city blocks in each direction, more or less square. We tried to avoid having to cross wide or heavily trafficked boulevards or feeder streets. Tuesday Book Study locations were marked and larger areas around them were blocked off. The Kingdom Hall area was divided into four or five medium segments so that multiple groups could meet at the Kingdom Hall on Saturday and Sunday mornings and be able to walk to assigned territories.

I can only remember about a half dozen regular pioneers serving in our congregation at any one time, but each of them would be given a small cutout map on a cardboard card and an assigned territory for a minimum of 30-days. They would exchange them each month for another territory - unless they admitted to having not covered the territory completely. An estimate of the number of residences was marked on the back of the card.

For a brief time our Territory Servant would make note of addresses reported as having vicious dogs or threatening residents. However, one of the Circuit Servants told us not to do that anymore "because situations change and we can not avoid delivering the good news" to anyone just because they had a mean dog or threatened to kill us.

When I "vacation pioneered" during my summer school break, I was given my own territory card to work. I was a dedicated VP so made sure to cover the territory completely. When I was done, I would go to the Territory Servant and ask for an exchange. Just working by myself and riding to the territory on my bicycle, I could usually cover a complete territory in less than two weeks. And I faithfully hit every living unit in the territory, even going back to "not at homes" and other "go-backs" several times to make sure that I had contacted everyone in the territory. I think one summer I must have covered 20-25% of the territories in one quadrant during my summer vacation - and that did not count Saturday and Sunday mornings when I went out with my family.

Why would I do such a thing? Very simply because I was a true believer. I was afraid that Jehovah would judge me harshly if I did not go to every door and put forth every effort to place magazines - or at least leave a public talk invitation - within my assigned territories.

I imagined being called before Jehovah on "Judgement Day" and being denied eternal life because "YOU FAILED TO KNOCK ON EVERY DOOR WHEN YOU WERE VACATION PIONEERING IN 1959 ON 4TH STREET. SOMEONE ON THAT STREET DIED OF NATURAL CAUSES BEFORE HE LEARNED OF GOD'S TRUTH AND YOU ARE RESPONSIBLE." I really believed that even though I knocked on 50 doors one day, but bypassed a few houses for whatever excuses I might have had might result in being incinerated during Armageddon. The risk was too great - so I hit every doorstep.

Now I look out my office window and see JWs working in our neighborhood bypass our house and others - often hitting only a few homes on each side of the street. One day a car pulled up in front of my house and a well-dressed couple got out. Both were carrying "book bags" when they finally got out of their car - after sitting there for nearly 20 minutes. Even though they were parked in front of my home, they did not knock on my door or the two across the street from me. But I did see them slowly walk up the street and hit about three or four others briefly before returning to their car and then driving away. I have no idea why they would park their car and then walka ways to visit other homes. I figured they were on my street a total of 45 minutes, with at least 15-20 being spent inside their car.

I would have had sleepless nights when I was a teenaged Pioneer - wondering how I would explain that type of half-hearted door-to-door service to Jesus - or god forbid - Jehovah!

I finally came to my senses when I turned 21. I figured I had better things to do with my time and would take my chances if Judgement Day ever came.

JV

24

Armageddon comes and you have 5 minutes with Jesus

by pleaseresearch in

so the big a comes, your third in line to be judged by jesus.

he wants to know why you left the organisation.

he also wants to know why jws remained with the org.

Juan Viejo2

I would ask him why, if the Bible was really his words and inspired by him, that He decided to make it indecipherable?

Just before He zapped me for eternity, I'd ask why He didn't just have the Bible written like a really well-prepared junior high text book - so even a 12 year old could understand it. Why did He write three different versions of the Ten Commandments when He could have just used the two Commandments that were attributed to Jesus:

Love everyone as if they were you siblings (because they are!) and do what is right before God.

Why did He present himself as a master engineer with multiple personalities?

Why didn't he just let Adam and Eve get on with their lives and REMOVE evil and temptations from their lives? Why did he create so many different and wonderful animals, sea creatures, and plant life - and then let 90% of them go extinct before humans ever appeared in the Garden? Duh! What the hell?

Jehovah has some 'splainin' to do...

JV

26

I think my Sunday speaker is awake

by Yondaime in

hi guys and gals,.

its been a long time since i've posted here, i've been caught up with school and work so i've never had the time to post on the forum, but i've still been reading through some articles on here.

now that finals are over i have some time to breath.

Juan Viejo2

ttdtt -

Maybe something has changed recently. The use of script readers for conventions has been reported for several years. This was not the case when I was giving public talks back in the 1960s, but I've had several ex-elders and former relatively high ranking brothers who were actually assigned to be script readers at district and regional conventions.

I do believe that this is a relatively new development (since 2000, probably) - the script readers sitting off to the side or behind the curtains at assemblies. I have also heard that brothers assigned to give the 30-minute public talk during the weekend meetings are also cautioned not to go off script or face the loss of that privilege.

Much has changed since the era of 55-minute public talks developed and given by mature brothers who filled in the gaps and added some of their own experiences to the outlines that we were given.

I attended a recent convention near my home a few years back. It was the Saturday afternoon session when they first released the first cartoon DVD for children (2011?). There was a group of 15-minute presentations that were interviews with local full-time pioneers describing how they overcame their money and personal needs in order to put in 100 hours a month - or whatever it was at the time. I could tell that the those interviewed were either reading their notes or had memorized their presentations word for word. It all just seemed so rehearsed and unbelievable, but I thought that was my "inner apostate" talking.

Later I happened to meet a former elder who had left the JWs at a meetup. I mentioned my observation. He told me how the process worked and about the offstage script checkers. Later, I met another former elder who told me that the script-readers were real. He also mentioned that sometimes the presentation by the "pioneers" really does not represent their lives (often the same exact "pioneer talk" is given at several different convention locations). The local elders recommend JWs who are serving as pioneers or elders and then they are given the script to read and told that they are representing other exceptional pioneers - not themselves personally.

It's all very scripted. I still can not get over the sing-song style that most JW speakers use now - far too practiced and rehearsed - just like the JW.org videos and training sessions on disk.

JV

26

I think my Sunday speaker is awake

by Yondaime in

hi guys and gals,.

its been a long time since i've posted here, i've been caught up with school and work so i've never had the time to post on the forum, but i've still been reading through some articles on here.

now that finals are over i have some time to breath.

Juan Viejo2

I agree with berrygerry. All public talks and all service talks are heavily scripted and none go into the history of the Watchtower or any of its early leaders and personalities.

Either this Bethelite was invited (much to their regret) to speak to the congregation by the elders, or he simply went off the reservation - much to the horror of the elders.

I have heard of this happening on a few rare occasions. A former elder, CO, DO or Bethelite who has awakened, decides to use his next speaking assignment to just let go and tell his story or expose the WT. These situations, while very rare and not usually reported, do happen from time to time. As long as the speech is given in a calm manner and is not completely over the top (as was the one reported by Yondaime), the elders will lay low while the talk is going on and won't take any actions until after the meeting is over.

Perhaps at the next meeting one of the elders will mention the talk briefly and indicate that Brother So N So was having a bad night or was not feeling well, so some of what he said might not agree with current teachings and everyone should just move on and concentrate on current publications.

Elders will usually do whatever they can to discourage any further communication or discussion about the event or the subject. They will figure (correctly, it seems) that most of the audience will not really have been paying attention or will have taken special note of what the brother actually said. The few that might come to the elders to ask questions can be easily brushed off and told to just forget about what happened and what they heard. To do otherwise would show "disobedience to Jehovah and His organization."

This will very likely happen more often in the future. The Watchtower knows this. That is why they have extra elders near the stage and a brother who reads the scripted talks as they are given. Speakers who go off the script - even a little bit - will be counseled not to let that happen again, especially during a convention - unless they are one of the Governing Body members (who seem to go over the hill every so often - just because they can).

There have been there have been rare reports of speakers actually being hustled off the stage and escorted out of the Kingdom Hall when something like this happens. Occasionally, someone who has learned TTATT will just stand up while sitting in the audience and start shouting out about the Watchtower's lies and failures (a la Derek OHare in GB). The meeting is put on a brief hold while a few brothers simply remove the person from the auditorium and take them outside.

Elders and ministerial servants are informed about how to handle disturbances and out-of-control guest speakers. More often than not, they will have to face a drunk or drugged person who wandered into the Kingdom Hall rather than a speaker who decided to go off the reservation one night.

JV

38

Hard to Remember but Back in the Ninteen Fifies...

by new boy in

jw
friends

my writing a book about my strange life as a jw.

i need some help.. does anyone remember when they used to get these charts out at the service meetings which had all the hours, "back calls" and bible studies on it?

what did they call that?.

Juan Viejo2

In reference to the live pianists who would often accompany the Kingdom Songs, our congregation in southern California had a regular pianist who more or less lived hand-to-mouth - but could really play well. He would sometimes give young JWs piano lessons at our Kingdom Hall (we had a very nice "baby grand" that one of the members donated when the Kingdom Hall was refurbished). I took about ten lessons from him, but could never get the hang of it. My mother would pay him $5 a lesson for me, but soon gave up as I was surely not cut out for that. When he and his family moved to another state, another brother stepped in and played for our Kingdom songs. He was quite good and we all loved his style. But he was "gay" before I even knew what that was all about, and even though he never did anything untoward toward any of the children in the KH, he was eventually harrassed and chased out by a few brothers and sisters who thought he was a little too "fey" to be trusted around their kids. Sad case. Lovely man. Great friend. Good piano player. Just a victim of hate. After they managed to chase him away, the congregation had to sing "a capella" - imagine how that sounded. So only about ten songs were ever chosen - because no one else could lead or play the piano and keep everyone in tune.

They got what they deserved...

JV

18

jws deny shunning, yet lie to not look bad

by Ghiagirl in

i recently decided to take matters into my own hands with my husbands family who have nothing to do with us.

his mom has seen my son twice since he has been born and his dad has never met him.

his family will pop in every few months, on top of that like in my last post ask for for money.

Juan Viejo2

While my JW parents and family members were not as hardline as other JW families I knew, they still made it clear to me and one of my siblings that we could not participate in normal family relationships. They presented that to us in a way that made that choice OURS, not THEIRS. All we had to do to be a part of the family again was for us to decide to return to the family as Jehovah's Witnesses.

My parents were not totally hardline "shunners" - and if I did show up their home in the middle of the night unannounced after driving 2000 miles - they would not turn me away. They'd give me a pillow, a blanket, and offer me the couch. The next day they would feed me and even treat me well while I was there. They would not throw me out or force me to go to a hotel (unless I brought my girlfriend along with me). At the same time they seemed uncomfortable - you know - like Jehovah was looking down on them and frowning upon them as long as I was there in their home or we were socializing to some extent. But my father still enjoyed watching a football game on TV with us in his home.

The same way when my brother and I would attend their funerals. We were welcome to attend, but not invited to sit with the JW family during the session. We were welcome to come to the house to be fed, but were supposed to stand off by ourselves so that all the JWs who were there would know that we were "tainted" and could properly avoid us. Some didn't get the word before shaking our hands and getting our apostate cooties on them.

But I do give them credit for making it clear to us that they did not like all of the rules, nor did they even agree with most of them. But they still wanted to be "faithful to Jehovah." The day after my mother's funeral my father had a rather heated conversation with another elder. Essentially he told the elder to mind his own business when it came to our personal family matters. "Well Bro. X, the circuit servant who gave your mother's funeral talk (BFD), met your sons and shook their hands not knowing they were disfellowshipped. You should not have allowed them to come to your house for the reception."

"My house. My rules when it involves my family. My sons have every right to be here for their mother's funeral and I will not exclude them. If you were offended by their being here, then you should get over it - or do what you have to do. I will answer to Jehovah for what happens in my home and with my family."

I know for a fact that my parents did not agree with the JW shunning rules and my father made it known to us in his own sometimes awkward ways. At the same time, they had been faithful JWs for 30-40 years and felt that it was too late for them to give up the "truth" after all that time.

I know for a fact that my mother and father did not personally agree with the shunning doctrine. But they lived with it because they felt they had too much invested as JWs to fight the rules. One of the only times I ever heard my father cry on the phone was when he told me that he could no longer invite me to his home, nor would he visit me again (because I was disfellowshipped) sometime around 1972 as the "stay alive 'til '75!" frenzy was going on. The next time I remember him doing that was when the Watchtower once again reinstated and hardened the DF rules shortly after the Raymond Franz ouster in 1981. He was very upset knowing that he would have to tow the WT line even though he personally did not agree with shunning of family members.

JV

76

1958 Convention Program. 8 days from 9am till 9pm. Anyone attend?

by StopTheTears in

jw
friends

how in the world did they justify this torture?

imagine the children forced to sit in the summer heat at yankee stadium for 12 hours a day.

for 8 days.

Juan Viejo2

We stayed in Brooklyn in 1958. I was pretty naive, being the "good JW kid" that I was - so at 15 I nearly got my first butt-kicking by a local resident teenager. What had I done to deserve a beat down?

I wore an LA Dodger baseball cap. You see the year before both the Brooklyn Dodgers and the New York Giants moved their teams to California (that was why the Polo Grounds were available at the same time as Yankee Stadium that year - unlike 1953). I was living in Riverside, California in those days and the LA Dodgers were now our local team. So, like most teenagers in Riverside, I had a Dodger cap that I wore all the time.

My father and I were walking along a business street a few blocks from where we were staying in a home owned by an elderly Jewish couple. Dad just wanted to get a cold beer (not available at the assembly site) and had me wait outside for him. About that time a half-dozen kids about 17-18 walked by and gave me a shove into a street newspaper rack. I hit it and then the ground pretty hard. One kid grabbed my cap and handed it off to another kid who ran off. Then he pointed at me and told me the next time he saw me he was going to kick my guts out. Just then my father came out of the store and chased them off.

I learned a valuable lesson that day - Jehovah won't protect you from disgruntled former fans. He must figure that if you are stupid enough to wear a baseball cap of a team that the locals really hate, then maybe you deserve a good bashing. Jehovah works in mysterious ways...

JV

76

1958 Convention Program. 8 days from 9am till 9pm. Anyone attend?

by StopTheTears in

jw
friends

how in the world did they justify this torture?

imagine the children forced to sit in the summer heat at yankee stadium for 12 hours a day.

for 8 days.

Juan Viejo2

I was at the 1958 New York Assemblies at Yankee Stadium and the old Polo Grounds (former NY Giants) baseball park. I turned 15 on the last day of the assemblies. My father, my brother and I played catch in right center field at Yankee Stadium near the orchestra tent on Sunday just before Knorr's final talk.

Do you remember that many of us who drove all the way in our family cars scotch-taped WT and Awake! magazines in our rear window or left side back-seat windows. Every few miles on our way going or coming back we would get honked at by fellow JWs also on the road. We met up with several along the way when we stopped at roadside parks or at a hamburger joint along the way. We thought the whole thing was a lot of fun.

I also attended the International Assembly at the Rose Bowl in Pasadena in 1963. It was hot and there was no shade at all during the summer. We all got cooked and sunburned and were miserable through most of that convention. But it was close to where we lived, so did not have to worry about accommodations.

For the 1953 and 1958 conventions, there was a tent city set up over in New Jersey (please correct me if I am wrong about the location). A lot of the folks who parked their trailers and set up tents there never actually went to any of the sessions in NY City, but just hung out for 8 or more days in the tent city. We went over and visited a couple of folks from our Kingdom Hall that were there and for them it was mostly a picnic except for the excessive heat, mud and dust that was everywhere. The talks were piped in and played over loudspeakers scattered around the parking areas.

As "under the radar" mentioned, our fondest memories were when we took a morning or afternoon off and went site seeing around the city. In those days the Empire State Building was still the tallest in the world, so in 1958 we decided that we would take a break and go to the top one afternoon. When we got up there the viewing area was crammed full of JWs doing the same thing - must have been over 100 up there. We never for a moment considered taking off our badges. Now that I look back it was clear that we had our priorities right - as the morning and afternoon talks were boring unless a new book or tract was being released.

JV